Couple's Guide to Overcoming Lust

Roy: Welcome to another episode of joy recovery radio. Glad you've joined us today. We're going to be talking about a topic that is. Pretty significant. We're going to be talking about lust. Some people call it objectification, but that was a big part of our story

Jacqueline: huge part and this topic is really sensitive.

A lot of people have a lot of opinions and different approaches of how to handle this. Our approach might be a little unique to some people. It's not, cookie cutter. This is what works for us. We're not saying that it's. Something for everyone, but we've gone through a lot of iterations of. How to minimize temptations and triggers.

And this one has really, this one's been successful.

Roy: Yeah. And, but not in the beginning, my journey of recovery is like a lot of men. And it was what we might call either fake recovery or doing recovery, but not being in recovery. So I'm [00:01:00] sad to admit that the very first year of recovery, I was still secretly.

Deceptively engaging in objectifying women, which was incredibly damaging to Jacqueline when that was revealed. But that revelation that I was still holding on to that particular behavior is what launched true recovery. And we had to go through five phases we recommend one, please learn from us and don't do it.

Defining Lust and Setting Boundaries

Roy: So the very first phase we went through is what we're going to call defining the line. What we mean by that is We needed to understand as a couple, what is lust? What is the line for me? And that I don't cross it. So we needed to clearly define the line and a helpful tool for us

Jacqueline: and our own definition. So everyone has a different maybe definition [00:02:00] or understanding or the way that they look at lust and objectification. So it is not again, one size. It is based on a specific person's behavior.

Roy: So for all practical purposes, the way we define lust in our coupleship is when I look at a woman with the intention of sexualizing her.

I'm not treating her as a human. I'm treating her as an object. And that was my MO for most of my life, was that I would look at a woman and I would look at specific body parts and I would go into fantasy and I would objectify. I would sexualize. and dehumanize that person. And so that was lust for me.

And that's how I practiced it. And in order to define the line for Jacqueline, I needed to be transparent about these are the things that I found attractive. These are the kinds of people that I [00:03:00] found attractive. These are the features that I found attractive. This is how I engaged in lust and one helpful tool that we use.

that we went through together was the arousal template by Dr. Carnes. And we went through that together. I filled it out. And so did you.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I filled it out because I think from a betrayed partner perspective, it's really good for me to understand how these questions were targeting different areas of arousal.

So I took it as well, and it was just really interesting and unique because it's just really not how my brain operates. One thing I will say where some of the questions were really deep and difficult for me to process and understand. For the men, that might not be the same, I will say that if you do the arousal [00:04:00] template, and you are not 100 percent honest, You are doing a disservice to your spouse, your partner, and yourself. The only true way to really define what maybe triggers or sparks temptation is to be honest with yourself and with your partner. If you're not going to do this, don't waste her time or your time.

Detecting and Addressing Temptations

Roy: And that led us to the second phase of this, because we needed to clearly define the line, which meant that I had to be transparent about how did I engage in lust, what was tempting for me, because for every person it's different. It can be a body part. It can be a type of clothing. It can be hair color.

It could be, Certain objects, it could be places, it could be situations, scenarios, just about anything could be, objectified so the way you engaged in lust. Might be different than the [00:05:00] way I did, but in order for us to understand where the line is, we've got to be transparent. We got to define it together.

Let's make it really clear. This is how I used to engage in lust and I never want to go back to it. But in order to not go back to it, we need to understand what was it? Where's the line? Where is the line? So that we don't cross it again. So number one, define the line.

Jacqueline: And I will do a disclaimer. Again, this is what worked for us.

This is not for everyone. There are many partners who don't want to know, what the arousal template temptations were. And that's okay. This is your journey. You do what feels right for you. This felt right for us and it's been successful. So that's why we're sharing it.

Roy: The reason we organically moved this direction was because we realized that we have a shared goal here.

We have a shared enemy and that's lust. We [00:06:00] don't want it to be a part of our coupleship ever again. It's my enemy and it's our enemy. So let's partner together to make sure that we define the line and we never cross the line. And what is often the case is that something that is tempting. For me is triggering for her.

So the same situation can cause temptation for me and trigger for her. And our shared goal is we want to minimize both. I want to try and minimize the triggers you experienced in a given day. And you want to try to minimize the number of temptations I experienced in a given day.

For my safety. Yeah, I don't want her to be triggered. I don't want to be tempted. We can't completely eradicate that. That's not even realistic. But we can minimize. There are some temptations and some triggers.

That are unnecessary if we just have a frank conversation about defining the line. This is where the line is.

Bouncing the Eyes: A Practical Approach

Jacqueline: Let's talk about bouncing the eyes.

Roy: So that comes to the next phase and that is , detecting the line. So [00:07:00] phase one is define for us. Phase two was let's detect the line. And this is where we really began to partner together.

When a temptation is detected by either one of us, we want to speak to it. We want to acknowledge it and we want to take action. We want to be proactive. And so what that sometimes means is we're out in public. I'm looking down, you're scanning. I'm not, you see something because we define the line, what tempts me, you see something that, that's probably going to be tempting for Roy and you take action

Jacqueline: and I'll say we need to turn around.

We need to just stop and let this pass or if it's a billboard and he's driving, I'll just simply say, hey, there's a billboard coming up. Just. Divert your eyes, keep your eyes on the road, don't pay attention to it. And that is our team [00:08:00] dynamic. And it works for us. One thing that I've realized is his temptations are going to be my triggers no matter what, but I have the authority and power to call them out and to name them and to label them because the alternative for me just wasn't working and the alternative was, not stating, I see something coming, but in my purview, seeing, is he going to look at it? Is he going to look over there? Is he going to avoid it? I'm not interested in doing that. I just rather call it out when I see it.

Roy: Now, what do you do when you detect a temptation? Whether you're alone or you're with your partner. What do you do? What I have found to be helpful is, not only do I need to move away from my old habits of what I used to do, But I need to replace them with something new.

So I move away from what I used to do when I saw [00:09:00] a temptation, but I engage in something that's completely different. It's not enough to just move away. You need to move towards something new. And so for me, when I saw a temptation, I did not bounce my eyes. I did not look away. I stared, and I went into fantasy.

Now, when I see a temptation, whether I'm alone or with Jacqueline, I bounce my eyes and I pray for that person. pray for God to bless that person, instead of me using them against their consent and sexualizing them. So by inviting the higher power to be a part of this encounter, and blessing instead of using this person, it, in my mind, re humanizes.

The people that I used to dehumanize by objectifying them. And so it's a, it's moving away from lust and moving towards blessing them.

Jacqueline: Can you quickly just high level overview, what is bouncing the eyes for those who don't understand and give the time [00:10:00] measurement to, because I think that's important because that can be weaponized.

I did bounce my eyes after 15 seconds. Yeah.

So just give a high level what is bouncing the eyes?

Roy: And I'm reticent to do anything like, the popular three second rule, because I know what we men will do will count to 2. 9 and then look away because we will find a loophole. We'll stretch it as far as we can.

We'll get way close to the line. So what's really safe is as soon as you recognize the temptation, whether it's on the street, Or on a screen you immediately look away and you don't look back. You don't count to 2. 9 and then look away and then look again for 2. 9 and then look away and then look again.

You don't rubber neck. You don't do any of that. You immediately look away but you don't just Avert your glance, you do something in place of that. So what's helpful for me is to pray for that person

Jacqueline: and I appreciate that. [00:11:00] 

Roy: Now, there are some recovery coaches and some thought leaders in this area that actually poke fun of bouncing the eyes. make fun of looking down, say that it's ridiculous, that it doesn't work, and these same people, I notice, continue to have slips, as they don't bounce their eyes, and they minimize them, and they call them slips, but they engage in objectification, or they end up Acting out in some way, because they weren't cautious enough to not only define the line, but to detect the line and take action as soon as you can

There's three words that have helped me when it comes to avoiding objectification. The three words are notice, look, and see. So those three words, and here's the difference. If I notice a woman, that's one thing.

It's impossible not to notice. And that's not when Jesus warned us about lusting after a woman, looking at a woman with lust, [00:12:00] that we're committing adultery in our heart. That word looking at a woman is not noticing. It's look. So noticing is a glance. But looking has an intention. I'm going to use this person for my own pleasure, for my own visual pleasure, against their will, against their consent.

I'm going to objectify this person. This is an act of the will. This isn't an accident. This isn't noticing a woman and looking away. This is noticing and now looking. There is an intention to use this person to sexualize this person. That's where you cross the line What you want to do instead of looking is to see and what I mean by that is we see this person from God's eyes This is God's daughter.

She does not belong to me. She is Made in the image of God, she is worthy of dignity, value and respect. I see her the way God sees her. So I may notice her, but I don't look, I look away and I pray and I see her from God's perspective, not [00:13:00] from my old perspective.

Avoiding the Pitfall of Dancing on the Line

Roy: So a third phase on here that we do not recommend is that I went from. Defining the line to detecting the line to dancing on the line. And that was a huge mistake that could have led to crossing the line. So here was the progression for me. When I entered into true recovery, I was terrified of lusting.

Didn't leave the house for a month. I was convinced that it's impossible not to lust. I did not believe in my own personal agency. I did not think that I could actually go a day, a year, or the rest of my life without objectifying a woman. That's just impossible.

Jacqueline: And I remember the first time that you went to a grocery store.

Roy: I was terrified.

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Roy: Absolutely terrified. I knew that I was going to lose Jacqueline if I engaged in lust again. So this has to stop. But what I did not know was, how do you stop? [00:14:00] Because I believe this Distorted lie, lust is inevitable, that all men lust, and it's impossible not to lust.

Jacqueline: But if we look at scripture, I don't think God would have given man two eyes. If he was powerless against lust,

Roy: And there's a certain passage in first Corinthians that was really helpful for me to understand that I do have agency, that I do have a choice, that it's not inevitable. And it simply says that when you're tempted, I, God will provide a way out because I'm faithful and you'll be able to stand.

So what that told me was, wait a minute, if that's the truth. Then lust is a choice, it's not inevitable, there's always a way out, and when I reflected back on all my decades of objectifying women, every episode of Acting Out, I have to admit that it [00:15:00] was a choice every single time, and there was always a door of escape.

Now, most of the time I didn't take it, but God was faithful the whole time. Every time I was tempted, there was an opportunity to pass that test, and I usually failed. After about, I don't, I think it was right around the four to six week mark of realizing, Oh my gosh, I've gone over a month without lusting.

I can do this. I've got this. I have agency. I have a free will. I will never lust again. And I went from being absolutely afraid to being arrogant,

Jacqueline: too confident.

Roy: I went from being terrified to being cavalier and careless and no longer cautious. And the pendulum would swing from one extreme to the other to sheer.

Terror and panic to

Jacqueline: pride. I've got this. Yeah. Yeah, I've got this. It's under control. [00:16:00] We should share the story about the movie.

Roy: Yeah. So here's an example of dancing on the line. And this phase had to stop and it did stop. And I wish that we'd never gone through it because if I had stayed in that phase.

I would have crossed the line. Jacqueline has to travel for work and there's this movie that I've been wanting to see. I saw it years ago with my kids. I remember it being a safe movie and I heard that there was an extended version and it had extra scenes in it and this was a superhero movie. So I thought, oh, I love superhero movies.

This is going to be great. And so there was nothing deceptive about it. I'm on camera. I actually text Jacqueline while she's on her flight. 

 Hey, I'm about to watch such and such movie. And then I sit down and I watch it. And every time there was something that was tempting on the screen, I'd bounce my eyes, wait till that scene was over and then look back.

I'd bounce and I'd bounce and I'd bounce and I'd bounce. And I [00:17:00] never engaged in lust or objectification, but I was absolutely dancing on the line. And not only that, completely inconsiderate of my partner. And what safety would look like for her.

Jacqueline: So the plane lands and I get a text message. Hey, I'm going to watch this movie.

And I didn't even have to search it without knowing. When was this sent? So I called him and I just said, is this a joke? And he was like, no, so and a family member recommended it. What logical explanation,

what in your right mind would make you think that this movie would be appropriate to watch? And the response was there were some scenes, but I just bounced my eyes. And it was at that point I realized, okay, bouncing the eyes [00:18:00] is one thing, but we've got to put a baseline around teetering with temptation. And if we know that the movie is going to require us to bounce our eyes, why even go there? Is it worth it? Like when you're playing with fire, someone's going to get burned.

Roy: So unfortunately that is part of our story

Jacqueline: that

Roy: even though I was in true recovery and I did not engage in lust, I didn't cross the line, but I was dancing on it. And I tell you what, if we had stayed there, I would have crossed the line. I would have gone back to old patterns and I would have. Stared objectified sexualized and done what I had done for decades.

Defending the Line: Strategies and Tools

Roy: So that phase had to end pretty quick and we moved to phase 4, which is let's defend the line. And so our posture was. Let's stay five feet from the line. Let's be extremely cautious. Let's [00:19:00] don't live in fear. Let's also don't live in pride.

Let's be realistic here. This is an enemy and you can overcome this, what's easier than bouncing your eyes? Not having to bounce your eyes, living in such a way that you're fighting for the line. You're not dancing on the line. And so this involved things like getting VidAngel, which is a filtered movie service, but not just relying on VidAngel.

Looking at IMDB, looking at the parental reviews, looking at the cast, scrutinizing this together and seeing.

And here this became our approach when in doubt

it's not worth it.

Yeah

Roy: when in doubt We're thinking about going here for vacation. We're thinking about going to this restaurant thinking about watching this movie Let's do our due diligence to see is this safe Instead of welcoming triggers and temptations into our environment, let's [00:20:00] do everything that we possibly can to minimize it, and if there's any doubt, we don't.

Jacqueline: And, VidAngel or Clearplay, all of these different, software where you can select what you want removed. Nothing is foolproof. Nothing is 100%. And there does have to be a little bit additional research to go into, okay, is the material suggestive?

Is the attire suggestive? Is it a nuisance to do this? Yeah, but what's the alternative? Me, being triggered, upset, a relationship, struggling, or us just saying, you know what, this is a necessary means. To end or avoid potential threats or, to avoid potential threats or disagreements or one of us feeling hurt. If [00:21:00] this is what it takes, I'm willing to do that. And aside, some people, TV just might not be a feasible thing. There's other things that you can do together, and I think rediscovering the relationship and changing things that maybe you did before, taking those away and you have to make modifications, that's okay.

It's okay. Does it suck for some of us? Yeah, it does. It's uncomfortable. It's a sacrifice. Men, remember, we have to sacrifice a lot. It's a sacrifice. That I'm willing to make as long as the coupleship is being protected. I'm okay with making some sacrifices. Because I'd rather do the sacrifice to save the relationship before we sacrifice the relationship.

Roy: So this is the [00:22:00] phase that we recommend where you defend the line. You stay five feet away from the line. You practice caution. You do your due diligence. There have been shows that I didn't watch even though they were clean. There was no content that was questionable. But the actress in it was someone that I objectified.

Years ago in a movie and I didn't want to run the risk of my mind going back there So decided not to watch it. So it's just being extra cautious 

Jacqueline: Be tested. Okay.

Defending the line. Defending the line goes past just tv and movies. Defending the line means to evaluate places that you go, family events, people maybe that come over, friendships, vacations. Defending the line is really taking a close look at, is this place safe for a coupleship? Because no one is [00:23:00] going to protect your coupleship better than you.

So we could be invited to a cookout. But where is the cookout? Who's going to be at the cookout? What's going to happen at the cookout? If the cookout is by a lake or by a beach or whatever. Likely we're not going to go and that's okay. We don't owe anyone an explanation for the decisions that we make to protect our coupleship.

And I am fine with that. I don't owe family explanations. I don't friends explanations. This is a priority for me and I'm happy to make. Certain adjustments and modifications to keep the coupleship protected from my end and from his end.

But as long as we're defending the line. We're in a good place.

Roy: Yeah. So five feet from the line, you're exactly right. It's not just about what's on the screen. It's about any environment. Just this week going [00:24:00] to the grocery store, I had too many items to go through the self checkout line. And so I needed to get in a line where there was going to be a cashier.

And I glanced and I see long blonde hair and I didn't see what this person looked like, but that just did not feel safe for me to sit there for who knows how many minutes. In line behind this person. And so I found another line that, a little bit longer, but safer. That's staying five feet from the line.

That's being extra cautious, being aware. Alright, that could be a potential temptation. What's easier than bouncing my eyes is not having to bounce my eyes. I think I'll go over to this line over here.

Devoting the Line: Commitment and Integrity

Roy: So the final phase that we are in right now. This is where we are in our couple ship and we've been there for a while and it's a good place I'm liking it.

It's what we call devoting the line. And what I mean by that is here's the line We have defined it. We want to detect it. We want to defend it but now [00:25:00] I have devoted all of me to God and to Jacqueline and I am going to treat this line as If Jacqueline is right next to me, even when she's not which that's what integrity Yes, integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one's looking.

Yeah. And so We came up with an acronym that we use to practice this and we just say WWJD. What would Jacqueline do? What would Jacqueline do if she was with me right now and I was watching this on the TV? What would Jacqueline do if she was with me right now and I am encountering this person at the grocery store?

Would she freak out? Would she feel safe? Maybe I'm seeing something that's not tempting for me, but if she was right next to me, she would not appreciate it. She would not feel safe. So this is what's called consideration. It's not just being cautious. It's being considerate. What would my partner think if she was with me, right next to me, [00:26:00] right now?

How would she feel about this? Out of consideration and devotion to her. Because I am fully devoted to her. My eyes are hers. My body is hers. And I share it with no one else. What's happening in this situation, I think it would be best for me to exit. Because she would appreciate that. And that is respectful, that is considerate.

Jacqueline: And I appreciate that. And when we mean what would Jacqueline do? Would I ask him to turn around? Would I ask him to go to a different lane? Would I say we need to leave? And that is really, what would Jacqueline do? And it's ironic how, it came into play, because there's even instances where I feel compelled to share with him I need to let you know about a situation that occurred or something that was [00:27:00] said, because I want that transparency to be on both ends, on my end and on his end, and that's really important.

So something could come my way or something could happen. And I want that trust and truth, to be demonstrated for myself as well. The keeping of secrets is infidelity and that's on me too and I'm very open and transparent with him on certain things because that's what I expect from him.

Some partners might not be at that point. I'm at that point. And for me, I'm providing an example to him of this is what I'm doing. And I expect the same in return.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Roy: So in summary, this is what our journey has been like, four of the five phases we do recommend define the line. What does that mean for you?[00:28:00]

Detect it together. And protect each other,

Jacqueline: defend

Roy: it, and then devote it to your partner. Even when they're not there, don't dance on the line. Now, a lot of you may be like me and you have a similar journey. You're in recovery and you're wondering, am I in true recovery or am I just doing recovery? Am I in fake recovery right now?

Because frankly, that's where most men begin their recovery journey is doing the task, but they're not in real recovery. And so we've designed an assessment that we want to make available for free on our website that looks at nine different domains to determine Am I in real recovery? So if you go to joy recovery.

com, take advantage of that assessment, sit down, look at it together and see if you need to pivot or tweak something in your recovery. So that you make that transition like I did from doing recovery to [00:29:00] being in recovery and living a lust free life.

Jacqueline: And for the betrayed partners, take the assessment too.

Answer it based on what you see your partner providing, or doing, or not doing. Get to a safe place to where you guys can share together, because this is not one, the betrayed partner is not the enemy. She is fighting for the coupleship just as much as he's fighting for sobriety. Healing needs to take place on both ends.

You can fight the enemy together. Which is infidelity, lust, objectification, lying. Integrity abuse disorder, actions, or you can fight with each other and continue to just divide and separate the coupleship. So this has been a great practice. I feel like it's really brought us together. [00:30:00] I'm grateful for it.

There are sacrifices that have to be made, but the alternative is just not going to work for us.

Roy: So thanks for joining us on this episode and we'll see you next time.

Jacqueline: Bye guys.